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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:07 am 
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I've completed the Delaware and District of Columbia sections now. Found a NY entry in there (NY-2845, Black River Bank). We should sync those up later, rather than doing it on the fly.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:37 pm 
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I have finished NY.
Christie's created about 330 rows.
Spink added another 10.
However, including Haxby added another 270 rows.
I do not have Christie's 11/1990 catalog. I am bidding on one now.
I am now doing some analysis on the results.

Should I post the spreadsheet here or email it to you?

Bernie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:46 pm 
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... SS:US:1123


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Glad to hear you made it through NY. That is one of the "marathon" states... maybe THE marathon state. Quite a body of work you have there. Post it here, if you're comfortable with that.

As for Haxby's, I already bought the $825 set, and am anxiously waiting on it to arrive. Thanks again for that link, by the way.

- Greg


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Greg,

I am attaching the NY spreadsheet below.

1. I added the ~27 face different NY notes from the 1997 Spink sale (a division of Christie’s). I added a column (Other Auctions) and used an “S” for this sale. I left Christie’s blank in this column. The Spink sale supposedly came from the British ABNC archives. Almost all of these notes were the Haxby plate notes for these proofs. This makes sense since I believe he lives in Canada and might have easy access to the archives there.

2. I added several columns for other denominations.

3. I could not find any NY notes in the two 2007 Harmers sales.

4. I have not done Christie’s 11/1990 sale since I do not have the catalog.

5. I have added several lots to the other states that were sold as part of the NY lots. In order to forestall potential miscounting, I have noted the lot number that these came from in the “notes” column.

6. I have added all of the NY proofs listed in Haxby. These are indicated by the light yellow background in the spreadsheet cells. Some of the yellow cells that indicate Haxby proofs also have numbers in them. These numbers refer to the Christie number of proofs only. That is, I have not added any “numbers” from Haxby to avoid double counting. I do not know how many proof notes Haxby saw of each variety or how many of these were sold in Christie’s auction. Notice that most of the yellow boxes are blank, that is, these proofs were NOT in the Christie sales.

7. I have verified one of my suppositions that Haxby only reported Proofs if he did not have an issued note to illustrate or report. This was determined by his (and Christie’s) sheet reports of proofs. For example, Haxby would report a full sheet (X numbers) with denominations of say $1, 2, 3 and he would show an issued $1 note but reported proofs for the $2 and $3. Thus the number of face different proofs known to Haxby are under reported in his catalog.

8. I have not yet added the recent sales of printing plates. As I previously mentioned this could help in determining whether modern pulls of the plates could exist. Guess what, the recent issue (3/2008) of “Paper Money” has an article on a “do-it-yourself” printing press utilizing these plates to create vignette prints. The results are probably distinguishable from the real thing. However, there are probably spider presses out there that could do a much better job!?

9. At the bottom of the NY spreadsheet I summarize some of the numbers
a. Christie’s has about 330 NY lots.
b. Christie’s lists about 3400 total proofs for NY.
c. This comes to about 10 proof notes per lot.
d. Of these almost 1100 are “face different” (including “small” difference like imprints, protectors, etc.).
e. Haxby lists another ~650 face different proofs that are not in Christie’s.
f. This means that there are at least 1750 face different proofs for NY. Probably some more because of 7 above.
g. There are about 200 notes that are listed in both Haxby and Christie’s.
h. Thus Christie’s sale more than doubles the number of known “face different” proofs. We have no idea how many of the Haxby-listed proofs (1988) were sold at Christie’s (1990).
i. Maybe this means that there are about 6000 total proofs available from NY?

10. As far as denominations go, including the Haxby listed proofs:
a. I recorded 25 different dollar denominations of $1, 1.25, 1.5, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 14, 20, 25, 50, 100, 250, 300, 400, 500, 1000, 3000, 5000 and 7 fractionals of 6.25, 12.5, 25, 37.5, 50, 75, and 87.5 cents. The latter corresponds to ½, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 bits. No 5 bits? Most of the odd numbers are only mentioned in the “notes” column.
b. I was surprised that there were no $200 proofs. I have not checked if NY issued any $200 notes. There also were no $7 and $9 proofs.
c. I was also surprised that there was only one $4 proof. This was a scrip note (Harris H184) issued by Rathbun in Buffalo. I posted an issued version of this $4 note in the $4 thread. Besides this note, NY issued only 3 other $4 notes.
d. As expected, the $1 is the most common at about 330 face different proofs followed closely behind by the $5, 2, and 10. There were about 175 $3 proofs.

11. The NY section in Haxby covers about 460 pages, about 17% of the total number of pages in Haxby.
a. A quick check indicates that Haxby lists about 25 notes per page on average.
b. This implies a total of about 11,000 “face different” notes for NY.
c. This implies that the NY proofs represent about 15% of the total number of “face different” notes (including G, C, A, S, R) issued for NY.
d. I also noticed that more than about 70% of the Haxby NY notes are listed as SENC. Since a very large fraction of the Christie proofs were SENC in Haxby and since the Christie sales had about 1100 face different proofs not listed in Haxby, the Christie proofs increased the percentage of available “issued plus proof” notes to about 35-40% of all known notes (Haxby numbers).

12. If one assumes that the other states have similar ratios:
a. Then there are about 60-70,000 Haxby numbers.
b. The total number of face different proofs would be about 10,000.
c. The total number of proofs might be between 30 and 40,000.


13. Proofs seldom sell for less than $100, sometimes for more than $1000. Thus the total “value” of proofs is around 5-15 million Dollars.


Once this effort is finished, I think that it deserves at least a letter, if not an article, in SPMC’s “Paper Money” or the IBNS journal. This would also give your Message Board much more exposure. Actually, just the existence of the Board deserves a letter.

Although the effort of entering essentially the whole Christie’s catalog into Excel is rather tedious, it has been a lot of fun looking at the results. Since no one else has volunteered to do other states, maybe I will help with a few other states that I am interested in. However, I am preparing for a talk in April and will have to slow down on this effort until the end of April.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:53 pm 
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I completely agree that when we're done we should publish an article in Paper Money. In fact, I think the data we're mining could be fodder for several articles.

You mentioned adding denomination columns... I've had to do that on a few states so far, but none had as many columns as NY did. However, both DC and CT have at least one $7 note in the collections... both had a sheet with $6, $7, $8 and $9.

By the way, as mentioned previously, there will be some additional NY entries from the Christies catalog coming from the other states that, at the very least, will alter the numbers on many of the banks. I'm working on Florida now and found another bank's notes mounted together with NY-275 (The Broome County Bank). I can either feed them to you as I find them or batch them up and give them to you all at once. Let me know what you'd prefer.

I think you'll find most of the other states to be a breeze now that you've tackled the biggy. After I finished CT, everything else has been easy... so far. I have a few marathons in my future, though. If you find you have no time or desire, don't sweat it. I'll press on just because some sick twisted part of me actually enjoys this kind of work... but even more, I'm looking forward with great anticipation to the analysis that will follow.

Thanks again for pitching in.

- Greg


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Oh, one more point. I do have the second Christies catalog. There seems to be only one lot that would loosely apply to your NY listing (though it is not an obsolete note, per se):

1225 Bank of America, a Specimen sheet of three 10,000 Dollar Certificates of Deposit payable in New York, 18-- (ca. 1879), DW, ABN, red vertical overprint at left indicating these certificates payable in gold, stub attached at left, creasing and folding, slightly narrow margin, official notation (date, otherwise highly attractive and spectacular as a sheet ....$400 - 500

The VAST majority of the catalog is notes from other countries. The only notes from the US are 1211 - 1229, and those are not obsoletes. Mostly national note proofs and treasury loan certificates. There's probably not much of interest to you in that catalog, unless you are interested in the Canadian note lots (240 - 646).

- Greg


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:20 pm 
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I would prefer to get the NY notes all at once.

I will probably try to add the printing plates from ANR/Stacks and Harmers.

You mentioned that the 11/1990 Christie's auction had about 400 Canadian lots. I presume these were mainly chartered banks, that is, not DC or BC numbers?

Bernie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:32 pm 
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Correct. The ones that have Ch-DC numbers start at lot 537 and the Bank of Canada notes start at 603. Want scans of those pages?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:37 pm 
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I am actually mainly interested in the Chartered bank notes. It sounds like there might be about 300 lots. There is an ebay lot for this catalog that hope to get.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:38 pm 
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Okay. If you decide you want the scans, let me know. There are quite a few pages of lovely color plates.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:09 pm 
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So the most common NY proof (all from Christie’s) is the $5 note from the Central Bank of Brooklyn, NY-215-G8a but without overprint. There are 45 proofs without the overprint and another 9 with the red overprint. Since the $5 came from sheets of 5-5-5-10, there were 15 sheets without OP and 3 with OP. Haxby lists the G8a (with OP) note as SENC with a central vignette of the Brooklyn City Hall. Given that this proof is the most common proof, one would expect to see some in the Heritage Auction archive of ~ 2500 NY obsoletes. There are NONE!! Is someone hoarding this particular proof?

The Marine Bank of the City of NY has 44 $5 proofs, NY-1710-G8a but without OP. Haxby lists this note as SENC with vignettes of Webster, a sailor, and a mechanic standing on bale holding a hammer with a red OP. The Heritage Auction Archive lists NO example of this proof. It does have a $1 proof from this bank for which there were 20 in Christie’s sale.

One of the most common NY proofs that I have run across in the last 15 years is the $5 note of the East River Bank of NYC. Christie lists 40 proofs of this $5 note, NY-1570-G14 but with different imprint (BB&C, BC) and tint. The tint is a striking reddish-brown outlining white “5 V 5” and “FIVE FIVE” (see below). Haxby lists G14 as SENC with an imprint of BA and with a large vignette of shipyards. However, the Heritage archive only shows one of these that sold in 2002 for $200. Oldmonye4u has one now on ebay with a BIN of $395. There were 28 proofs of the $1, NY-1570-G2 but with the BC, ABNCo imprint and tint as the $5. It shows a NYC street scene with multi-story buildings being erected. Maybe I remember these because they are so striking. Heritage lists 4 of these $1 proofs.

The above is a little puzzling? Heritage lists over 2500 NY obsolete notes from 1993 to 2008 and yet only one proof (out of 129) from the three most common proofs in Christie’s. Maybe it is just “small statistics.” I have not had a chance to explore the Smythe auction catalogs that have concentrated more on obsoletes, especially the Schingoethe Collection.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:03 pm 
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Those are interesting data points. I'm not quite sure what to make of them. I'd say on the whole my observations are that the frequency with which I've seen TN proofs is fairly consistent with the numerical availability as detailed by the first draft of the spreadsheet. But that, too, is a small data set. Now that you mention it, I think once this project is done I'll check all my proofs and see how closely my collection tracks with the most available notes curve.

- Greg


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:14 pm 
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The online catalog for Smythe's Schingoethe #14 April 9th sale is out. There seem to be many proofs in this sale. In particular there are many notes from the 1997 Spink sale from the British ABNC. The Schingoethes seem to have bought a large fraction of the Spink proofs. I think there are some notes, at least for NY, that are not yet in my database.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:21 pm 
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I already have the printed version of that catalog. I'm on their mailing list now due to previous purchases, I suppose. NY, in particular, is well represented in this sale. Happy hunting.

- Greg


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