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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:07 pm 
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A while back I was shown some images of Wisconsin notes that are quite interesting. Now I can share them with you. Have a look and let me know what you think about them. The images are relatively large, and I left them that way on purpose... too large to display here, but not so large they'd be a problem to download.

WI-180-G4b

WI-205-G4

WI-260-G2a

WI-280-G2

WI-530-G4a

WI-535-G2a

WI-660-G4a

WI-850-G4a

WI-880-G2a

- Greg


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:14 pm 
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The large left and right margins (and the large top margin on the $1 A notes) make them almost look like they came from remainder sheets.

Have the holes been added to try to make them look like proofs?

What about the paper? Not India?

I actually think that they might be from Archival Die Proof Books. Spink had quite a few. One lot had a picture.

Do you have any information regarding their origin?

Bernie


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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:44 pm 
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On looking closer I notice that:

1. 180-G4b is actually G4c (SENC). The illustration in Haxby for the G4b proof also has different cancellation-hole placements.

2. 280-G2 has no OP and capitol of $100,000. Your image has a red ONE OP and capitol of $50,000. It also is not G2a, G2c, or G2d.

The last point (that is, the note is different from any Haxby number) probably indicates that it is not a remainder since remainders mainly come from notes printed for the bank but not actually issued (signed) by the bank. Note that it has a capitol of $50k, smaller than any of the Haxby listed notes. So it probably is an early “proof” that was later corrected for the larger capitol amounts. I still think that it came from an Archival Book.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:00 am 
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Here is my favorite Wisconsin remainder sheet.
Note that the remainder sheet has a serial number.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:02 am 
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I don't really have information regarding the origin. All I can say is that it seems to have belonged to someone who did some work for banks.

I found them interesting for the same reasons you did.

- Greg


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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:30 pm 
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If there were only one note and it came from one person working at a bank, then it might be a modified remainder with added holes. I say this because I think that the banks typically held the unsigned notes (when they were essentially remainders) until they were issued (signed). I don’t think that banks generally were given proof notes. They might have seen them (or specimens) to obtain approval to go ahead with printing the sheets.

So why would one person have obtained 9 notes from banks scattered around the state? Could he have worked in some state office that was given samples as counterfeit detectors?

These notes do remind me of some of the notes seen in Banknote Detectors. As an example I show a note from the 1866 Heath’s Infallible Counterfeit Detector. There were many versions of these types of detectors. This particular note is from The Bank of Orleans in Albion, NY-120-G26a listed in Haxby as SENC. Note that the “proof” has large margins, 5 cancellations holes albeit larger than typical. It does not seem to have any imprint (Haxby mentions RWH). It also has “plate 16” in the upper right hand corner that refers to the 16th engraving in the detector. The paper quality seems different from the typical obsolete. It feels more like parchment. That is why I was asking about the paper quality of your notes. Any glue marks on the backs? Maybe you only have scans?

I still like the idea of Archival Die Proof Books (see scan).

Bernie


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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:50 pm 
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There is an interesting note similar to the above on ebay right now at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... TQ:US:1123

This note looks very much like the one I posted above, except that on first sight it does not seem to have the “Plate 16” in the upper right hand corner.

I obtained a better scan from numismatics123. If you look in the upper right hand corner, you can see that "plate 16" is almost erased. Thus this note looks like it also is from a Heath detector like the one that I posted above. It would be interesting to be able to compare this note to an actual counterfeit (NY-120-C26a). Haxby says that it is an excellent imitation – the first time that I have seen this kind of statement in Haxby. The quality of the counterfeit is probably why they put it in the detector. Haxby’s image of this counterfeit does not seem to have either the cancellation holes or the "Plate 16".

Bernie

P.S. I received permission from numismatics123 to post this information and his scan.


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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Here is another one that sold for $150 in 2006 by Heritage with this description:

Albion, NY- Bank of Orleans $5 18__ Proof
All genuine notes on this bank are listed as SENC "Surviving Examples Not Confirmed" in Haxby and proofs for this denomination are not mentioned in that reference. We last sold a similar $5 proof with a tear on this bank over five years ago. This About Uncirculated, PC example has a single fold and is without any tears.

Notice that someone did a much better job of erasing the "Plate 16". Also the fold is in the same place to fit into the detector.

You can generally find the whole Heath's counterfeit detector for around $100, especially since many have their bindings falling apart. There are typically several other notes and many vignettes to sell then.

Buyer beware!!!!!

Bernie


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:38 am 
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It is ironic that this "counterfeit detector" is being sold as a counterfeit "proof".

Bernie


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:57 am 
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Indeed... ironic, and to a certain extent inevitable.


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Somehow adding this is the kind of information to the spreadsheet would make it still more valuable.

Bernie


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Here is another Albion note for an Ebay BIN of $90. The "plate 16" has been totally erased. It is actually quite unfortunate that so many of these "Counterfeit Detectors" are (or have been) taken apart.

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-The-Bank-of-Orlea ... 18Q2el1247

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:14 pm 
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Well, I bought a contemporary counterfeit of NY-120-G26a, that is C26a at HA this evening.
Attachment:
ALbionNY_BofOrleans05cft1040+5.jpg
ALbionNY_BofOrleans05cft1040+5.jpg [ 206.84 KiB | Viewed 8225 times ]


The description by HA was:
Quote:
Albion, NY- Bank of Orleans $5 Jan. 1, 1854 This is a counterfeit on this bank that would go on to become the First National Bank of Albion in 1863. We have had only three of these counterfeits in the past. Haxby's comment on this note, "an excellent imitation" and we agree. Fine.


This counterfeit note (C26a) does not have any imprint just as mentioned in Haxby. The genuine note G26a (SENC) has an RWH imprint according to Haxby. Haxby mentions that C26a was "an excellent imitation" of G26a. However, if the genuine had the RWH imprint and the counterfeit did not have the imprint, then that would be an easy discriminator.

Also note that this counterfeit does not have the "Plate 16." like the "proofs" out of the Counterfeit Detector.

I note that Christie has a unique proof of this note. It is the only proof of this bank mentioned by Christie. It also mentions that this proof does not have an imprint. Additionally, it mentions that it has several folds. The folds indicate to me that the "unique Christie proof" might actually be one of these "proofs from the Heath's Counterfeit Detector." Or is it a proof created for the Counterfeit Detector? But then why would it have folds like the ones in the counterfeit detectors? I think that this is too much of a coincidence - proofs generally don't have folds.

What do you think?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:19 pm 
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Well, after seeing the backs of the Wisconsin notes at the HA site for the September auction, I definitely think that these notes are remainders for which someone added the 4 POC's.

They look like remainders.
The paper is not India.
Looks like regular banknote paper.
The “bleed through” on the backs looks like regular paper.
They have many folds.
The side margins are much larger than for typical proofs.
The holes are oval and ragget, not like those found on real proofs.
The 4 POC holes were probably added.

And the clincher:
They have protectors on the back.

My question is how can PMG consider these to be proofs?
This is a very bad precedence!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Well, these remainders masquerading as proofs sold for an average of about $1300 each with a low of 550 and a high of 2200.

One did not sell with a reserve of $1000. This one is still available for this price.
I also note that for many of the notes that did not sell that you can "make an offer" now.

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