Broken Bank Notes Message Board

Forum for Obsolete Currency Discussions
It is currently Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:31 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
I thought I might start a tread that shows examples of high value (priced) obsoletes.

My first entry is from the upcoming Knight Auction.
http://www.lynknight.com/ShowAuctionDet ... n_ID=53908
Knight described it as:
Quote:
$5 Clark, Gruber & Co., Denver, Colorado Territory VF/XF. This note is printed on bank note paper and has a serial #2004. It has several insignificant folds and creases, and a trace of a paper clip rust spot at the top over Colorado. Clark, Gruber & Co. was formed in 1859 by Austin M. and Milton E. Clark and Emmanuel H. Gruber in Denver, Colorado. In July 1860, they issued Territorial gold coins on a new steam powered coring press. They were successful at this venture and they printed the private bank notes at approximately the same time. Both efforts were to help alleviate the cost and risk of shipping gold. This note has never been seen fully signed and issued. We know of two proofs and this newly discovered note, serial #2004, to be the third of its type. The others are #1999 and #2007. This note has been with members of the banking family since it was printed. The Clark, Gruber & Co. note has long been considered the most important Obsolete bank note, no doubt in part to its clear connection with the Colorado Territory and the private gold coinage. Each time a note has been available to the marketplace a new record has been established, going from over $60,000 to $77,625 to $126,500, all in the span of three years.


It has an estimate of $125,000 to $175,000 with a starting bid of $75,000.

Good luck in your bidding!

If anyone knows more information about these notes, please post!

Bernie


Attachments:
ClarkGruber.jpg
ClarkGruber.jpg [ 78.41 KiB | Viewed 17683 times ]


Last edited by Bernie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Another one is the Knickerbocker note listed in the Unique thread on May 30, 2008
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=271&start=60
This one sold for $43,700.

_________________
Bernie


Last edited by Bernie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 1:58 pm
Posts: 54
A re-issued Kirtland $3 note went for $47,500 in the last Smythe auction. Not remotely unique, though definitely rarer than the non-re-issued types. Lot #1971, though I can't seem to link directly at the moment.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Here is the image and description from Smythe #279 on 4/2008:

Quote:
Lot #:1971 $10,000-15,000
UT. Kirtland . Reissue-Kirtland Safety Society Bank. (Rust 69). Regular issued Kirtland $3 note printed by UBSH.Train coming over hill. Medallion busts in each corner. Dated March 8, 1837 in Kirtland and signed by Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon. The note was reissued in Salt Lake City and countersigned on the face by Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball. Also, signed by N.K. Whitney and with the secret mark of "TB" for Thomas Bullock. Embossed seal of the Twelve Apostles. Only 23 Reissued $3 notes were authorized and logged in the Church's records. This serial number 4635 is listed in the Rust census. This note is stunning and one of the finest we have seen. It is clearly superior to the Ford VI lot by perhaps two grades. A boldly impressed seal and vivid brightness. Light wrinkling, the note is nearly full Very Fine-Extremely Fine. On eye appeal, it might be judged finer. Likely not to need an upgrade. There may not be a true uncirculated note of the reissued series due to the usage and circumstance.
The reissued notes were quite historic in that Young made "them good as gold" as was promised back in Ohio by Joseph Smith. The Kirtland notes raised much controversy in the 1830's era politics of Ohio and the advance of the Mormon religion. However, there is no doubting the significance of this paper money issue as one of the most famous in American annals of finance through paper promissary loans.


The $47500 was without the buyer's premium. Thus it is actualy a $55k note.

Bernie


Attachments:
Kirtland05_55k.jpeg
Kirtland05_55k.jpeg [ 72.65 KiB | Viewed 17657 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Here is an $18K note also in the same Symthe auction as above:
Quote:
Est $7,500-12,500
UT. Great Salt Lake City. Deseret Currency Association. $2. March 4, 1858. (Similar to Rust 87, but hand signed). Series A Note. Printed on thin, frail white paper. Book and plow flank title. Typeset, large `2'' at the right. Handwritten signature of Brigham Young. Another historic and rare issue of note. The series was created to use in payments to defenders against the impending Johnston's Army incursions by the Federal Government. These notes were backed by livestock and the majority of this typeset issue, Series A, B and C, were burned and replaced by the copper plate notes with vignettes. Generally, these are rarely offered. This example, has much body to it. Small body hole. For the issue, Fine-Very Fine is the proper classification.


bernie


Attachments:
Deseret02_18k.jpeg
Deseret02_18k.jpeg [ 93.64 KiB | Viewed 17653 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
It amazes me that a 5 cent scrip note can fetch $15k about 15 times the estimate.

Smythe 279:
Quote:
Lot #:1999 Est = $750-1,250
UT. St. George . St.George Stake Tithing Store House. 5¢. Sept. 17, 1895. (Rust unlisted, same series as Rust 234). Light yellow. Beehive. Grapes on the back. Ex. Criswell/Stanley Gibbons. NASCA 1982. VG.


Attachments:
SrGeorge005_15k.jpeg
SrGeorge005_15k.jpeg [ 102.31 KiB | Viewed 17644 times ]

_________________
Bernie
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 1:58 pm
Posts: 54
Well, frankly, there's the obsolete market, and then there's the Mormon material market, and they're two completely separate things. The interesting thing is, Kirtland notes are essentially the most common Ohio bank there is, as soon as you throw out the piles of unissued swill from Franklin Silk Company, etc. But you'd never know it from the auction results (at least, until you see the sheer number of those results).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
So should we ignore these?
Do you have any idea how many there are?

I was hoping to get a list of the Top 10 or Top 100. Would the Mormon notes dominate these lists?

_________________
Bernie


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Here are a couple of scrip notes above $10k.

The first has a denomination of 37 cents (no 37 cent note is listed in Durand's Denominations book) at $11.5k:
Quote:
Smythe Auction 272 Lot #:3735 Est = $2,500-5,000
VA. Richmond. Stephen Mason. 37 Cents. Oct. 4th, 1861. Standing Ceres with sheaf of wheat, left. "37 Cts." on both sides of a group of flourishes at the center, and "Thirty-Seven Cents" spelled out in the right end panel. Purchased from a dealer in 1991, and this may be the only opportunity you will ever have to own this incredible denomination. R-7. Fine, with a few inconsequential pin holes in the tissue-thin paper


The second at $10k:
Quote:
Auction 272 Lot #:3763 Est = $1,000-1,500
CO Territory. Denver. Banking House of C. A. Cook & Co. 50¢. 186_. Allegorical women representing Justice and Music, left. Indian, right. Green overprint includes two reverses of U. S. Seated Liberty Half Dollars. "Denver, C. T." imprint. Henry Seibert. VF-EF, but appears Uncirculated at first glance. Small POC in signature block. All appear to have been cut from one sheet.


Attachments:
RichmondVT037_11k.jpeg
RichmondVT037_11k.jpeg [ 50.17 KiB | Viewed 17636 times ]
Cook50c_11k.jpeg
Cook50c_11k.jpeg [ 93.91 KiB | Viewed 17631 times ]

_________________
Bernie


Last edited by Bernie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Another 3 Mormon notes in Smythe sale #272.
So out of 10 notes above $10k, I found 4 non-Mormon notes out of the last 8 Smythe auctions.

The first is a $21k note:
Quote:
Lot #:3916 est = $8,000-12,000
IL. Nauvoo. City Treasurer, City of Nauvoo. $1. Jan. 1, 1842. (Rust Figure 33, Variety 2). Nauvoo, Illinois was a brief but large settlement of Mormons, founded after their exile from Missouri. The size of the city grew rapidly from its inception, as missionaries encouraged converts to move to their settlement in the American West. This handsome typeset $1 note, issued by the city, has a story to tell.

It is an early note, dated from the beginning of 1842, with serial number 19, and has a bold blue pen signature of John C. Bennett as mayor. He was an influential but controversial figure in the early church, having been converted to Mormonism in early 1840, and his position as Quarter Master General of the Illinois State Militia enabled him to become a close friend of Joseph Smith. Bennett’s experience with the state was useful in helping Smith design the government for the new city of Nauvoo. Bennett, however, had a scandalous past, which he successfully hid to allow himself to be considered for prominent positions in the church and city. He became mayor within a year of his arrival in Nauvoo, but by early 1842, he was caught in adultery. He told several of the women whom he had seduced that his acts were sanctioned by Joseph Smith. When discovered, he confessed and promised to change, but he was caught once again, and then he was excommunicated by the church. He was gone by May 1842, and Smith assumed the position as city mayor. His departure further aided the rise of Brigham Young.

This $1 note is an important and vivid keepsake from the transitionary times of the Mormon Church. For purposes of comparison, a similar note (the Rust Figure 32 plate note, variety 1) was sold by us in Sale 257, lot 1833, as part of a larger offering of Mormon and Nauvoo notes from the Schingoethe collection. That note, not as clean and nice as this specimen, realized an amazing $25,300. That kind of excitement for this note is not out of the question. Herb and Martha were proud to have this in their collection, and it will be a source of pride for the new owner as well. E. Robinson, Stereotyper and Pr. Pleasing Fine, a little weakness in the center.
Back


The second is a $25k note:
Quote:
Lot #:3918 Est = $8,000-12,000
IL. Nauvoo. Seventies Hall. $5. 1844. (Rust Figure 38 Plate Note). The Seventies Hall was a chapel and training facility for missionaries in the Mormon Church, completed and dedicated in December 1844. The Seventies was the name of a missionary group, taking its name from the seventy to whom Jesus proclaimed the Great Commission. Members of this group were sent throughout the United States, Canada and much of Europe. The construction of the Hall was accomplished through the sacrifice of many people, including those who would subscribe to the sale of its stock, which was priced at five dollars per share. This certificate was issued to Elias Smith, and signed by Jos. Young as president and John Lee as secretary. VF-EF, trimmed.


and the third is a $32k note:
Quote:
Lot #:3917 Est = $10,000-20,000
IL. Nauvoo. Arsenal of the Nauvoo Legion Association. $5. Oct. the 8th, 1844. (Rust Figure 35). Certificate good for one share of capital stock in the Nauvoo Legion Association Arsenal. Typeset, with handwritten signatures of E. Ellsworth, Charles C. Rich, and most notably, Brigham Young, as Lieutenant General of the Nauvoo Association. This piece, dated from October 1844, was created during a time when local non-Mormons were threatening the existence of Nauvoo. That very month, a gathering was announced at Warsaw, a nearby town, for a “wolf hunt,” but it is was clear to all that the wolves were in fact the Mormons. The governor dispersed this particular conflict, but threats continued. In response to growing anti-Mormon sentiment in Illinois, the church leaders took up arms to defend themselves, and this certificate is a testament to that endeavor. Within a couple of years, the ill sentiment had worked its way up to the legislature, who repealed the city’s charter. Faced without civil protections, the Mormons saw their stay in Nauvoo as a lost cause, and agreed to abandon the city. The majority of Mormons left in early 1846 westward to Utah.

This certificate is a spectacular and well preserved specimen, with a clear and bold pen signature of Brigham Young. Every bit as nice as the Rust plate note. EF.


Attachments:
IL-Nauvoo01_21k.jpeg
IL-Nauvoo01_21k.jpeg [ 42.83 KiB | Viewed 17624 times ]
IL-Nauvoo05p_25k.jpeg
IL-Nauvoo05p_25k.jpeg [ 31.35 KiB | Viewed 17623 times ]
IL-Nauvoo05_32k.jpeg
IL-Nauvoo05_32k.jpeg [ 33.26 KiB | Viewed 17623 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
A quick search of the Heritage archives revealed 44 notes listed as "Mormon".
Of these 6 realized above $10K: 11,11,13,15,15, and 22.

_________________
Bernie


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
I searched the Heritage archives for obsoletes and ordered the list with highest price first. Out of over 30,000 obsolete sales in the Heritage archive, I found a total of 14 notes that sold for more than $10k.

As expected Ohio had the most with 10 Kirkland notes above $10k, the highest sold for $21.8k. There were one $3, one $5, one $20, two $50 (serial #27, 34), and five $100 (serial #113, 129, 144, 204, 2274) notes.

Since the archive only returns 1000 lots per search, and there were 8 states with more than 1000 lots each, I missed about 5,000 out of the 30,000 total obsoletes. Since I captured all of the 10 Ohio notes above $10k, I probably only missed about 1 other note over $10K.
Here are the non-Mormon notes:

A California note payable at the Bank of New York went for $13k.
http://currency.ha.com/common/view_item ... c=pr#PHOTO
This note is not listed in Haxby. The design also does note seem to exist in Haxby for the main branch of the Bank of NY, NY-1790?

A SC scrip note went for $11k.
http://currency.ha.com/common/view_item ... 647&src=pr

Bernie


Attachments:
CA-BofNY10_13k_.jpg
CA-BofNY10_13k_.jpg [ 193.97 KiB | Viewed 17607 times ]
SC-AndersonCourtHouse10c_11k_.jpg
SC-AndersonCourtHouse10c_11k_.jpg [ 280.33 KiB | Viewed 17608 times ]


Last edited by Bernie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Here are the other two:

Another CA scrip note sold for $13k with this description:
http://currency.ha.com/common/view_item ... c=pr#PHOTO
Quote:
San Francisco, CA - The Imperial Government of Norton I 50¢ March 11, 1876
A lovely and rare signed and issued piece of scrip from the local eccentric Joshua A. Norton, signed as "Norton I Emperor". Counterstamped twice on the face "Cal. Club" (meaning unknown), this note also has some notations in ink on the back. Very Fine+++, one of the more intriguing items in this sale and likely to reach or exceed. .


And the most expensive that I have seen so far sold for $126.5k last January:
http://currency.ha.com/common/view_item ... c=pr#PHOTO
Quote:
Denver, CO- Clark, Gruber & Co. $5
This is one of the most historic and important Obsolete notes as this issuer also struck gold coins in 1860 and 1861. Very few of these Clark, Gruber & Co. notes have survived in collector hands, likely because they were payable at par "in Denver Coin" while the notes of the Federal government were not payable in gold and were sold at a discount. We are able to document in private hands just two Proofs, with the Ford example selling for $77,625 in 2005, a record price for an Obsolete note. We can also document two remainders, this example with serial number 1999 and the Schingoethe example grading Extremely Fine with serial number 2007 which sold for over $60,000, also in 2005. Prices such as these for an Obsolete Note have earned these notes a comparison to the 1804 Silver Dollar and Grand Watermelon notes and rightfully so.
The $5 denomination was the only denomination issued by this private bank and mint, and when the first notes were issued they were written up in The Rocky Mountain News of August 3, 1861, attesting to the importance of this issuer in the local Denver community. This piece has bright, original paper surfaces, vivid inks, sound borders, and a lovely overall appearance. The portrait to the right is that of William Gilpin, the first governor of the Colorado Territory. A small spot in the left margin is mentioned solely for the sake of total cataloguing accuracy. This is a spectacular western item and a wonderful opportunity for one fortunate collector to add a majestic note of true rarity and historical importance to his holdings. Nice Very Fine. Estimate: $50,000 - $70,000.

This note is different from the upcoming note from Clark, Grueber and Co. in Knight's upcoming auction.

This makes 8 non-Mormon and 16 Mormon notes so far above $10k.

Bernie


Attachments:
Norton50c_13k_.jpg
Norton50c_13k_.jpg [ 166.61 KiB | Viewed 17587 times ]
ClarkGrueber05_126k_.jpg
ClarkGrueber05_126k_.jpg [ 198.97 KiB | Viewed 17578 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 1:58 pm
Posts: 54
Clark, Gruber notes are essentially the 1804 silver dollars of the obsolete world. So far as I know, the record price has been a Clark Gruber note for a while, though each time one shows up, the record goes up. Kirtland notes have always been high-priced, especially for their (lack of) rarity, because of the Mormon connection. The reissued notes (and by this, I mean notes that were taken to Utah and reissued there--they have four signatures instead of two, and generally have both Joseph Smith's sig from Ohio and Brigham Young's from Utah) are especially expensive -- at least 15K, whereas a "normal" Kirtland note can sometimes be grabbed for 2K...though not lately.

ETA: This probably goes without saying, but the real reason the list of highest prices realized for obsoletes is going to be dominated by Kirtland notes is the fact that they are fantastically in demand, but also very, very common. The $100 note, for example, is listed in Wolka as a R-2: 101-200 known. The reissued notes are apparently known by serial number; I see in a press release from the recent Smythe/Spink auction that 23 $3 reissueds are known. So the availability is just on another level, but the signatures and historical/religious significance makes it a considerably different beast.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: High Value Obsoletes
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm
Posts: 527
Knight has another high value note coming up at the end of the month described as:
http://www.lynknight.com/ShowAuctionDet ... n_Id=52892
Quote:
Grade: VF
$1 William A. Graham Gold Mines, Brackettown
The only other example we know of was in the Ford Collection and it had a piece torn off. That note was described as, "Style of the 1850s. Printed on thin bank note paper. Engraved and lithographed by 'D. Fell & Co. Xylographic Press, 2 & 5 Pearl Street, New York'. Full and fine brown tint lathe across the note. Outlined white protectors, obligations and counters. At the top center, a beehive. At the left, the issuer's name and at the right a panel with '10' counter. Unissued remainder with no dates or signatures. An extremely rare issuer and a very important scrip note from the North Carolina gold mining region. Though the private coinage issuing period ended much earlier, the mining continued and this note is a vivid reminder. The tint type is the first we have ever seen and also is the first note we have seen from this imprint".


Bernie


Attachments:
GoldMneri.jpg
GoldMneri.jpg [ 120.4 KiB | Viewed 17547 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group